| Author | Message | ||
     James VanStratt Newbie Username: Jvanstratt Post Number: 1 Registered: 07-2006 |
Last weekend our boat had sailed a great race. Everything was great until we turned the corner for the finish. A boat that had been on our hip all day flying the same a-sym kite we had been all of a sudden changed kits and started to crept up on us fast. They eventually passed us about 7 miles from the finish. They were averaging 1-2knts faster dead down wind then we were with that new shoot. We were using the largest class shoot available. How is this possible to get beat by a huge "whomper" of a kite this late in the race? The comps boat couldn't jibe it very well because of its size, so we tried to enter into a jibing dual. They eventually figured out that if they sailed dead down, they would kill us? Do we need to by a larger new kite to be competitive? | ||
| Bee Bednar Newbie Username: Abejita Post Number: 7 Registered: 05-2006 |
Was this a USA PHRF or class race? Was the other boat a 105? If it was a class race and they hoisted anything larger than 89 sq. meters you should have protested them. | ||
| James VanStratt Newbie Username: Jvanstratt Post Number: 2 Registered: 07-2006 |
Good Questions..It was a J105, we were racing in the Chicago to Mac. I just wanted to find out if it was possible to have anything larger then the 89sq kite and use it in a racing situation like that. | ||
| Bee Bednar Newbie Username: Abejita Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2006 |
The PHRF kite is 110 sq. meters. At least that is the supposed limit. Since this was PHRF the other 105 was probably within her rights to hoist the larger chute. In light-medium air the 110 makes a bit of a difference, but I have not seen 1-2 knots when I run against the boats here. That advice goes out the window if the waves are moderate. Then the 110 is definitely worth it. In heavy air, I really believe the 89 is both faster and much easier to control. We will probably never see this again, but my Ullman 89 took us up to 17.5 through the water and 18.75 over ground in one of the recent offshore races in the Gulf. Wind was around 25 with gusts to around 31. Love these boats. | ||
| James VanStratt Newbie Username: Jvanstratt Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2006 |
Thanks for the reply. That makes a ton of sense. The waves were 2-3ft following seas. Wind was 10-15 with short gusts to 20. | ||
| James VanStratt Newbie Username: Jvanstratt Post Number: 4 Registered: 07-2006 |
We hit 18knts with the 89 in the Manitou passage, wind was 25-35 on our speedo waves 6-8 feet. We has some great surfing in the middle of the night. | ||
| Bee Bednar Newbie Username: Abejita Post Number: 9 Registered: 05-2006 |
In 10-15's the 89 can be run very close to the 110, but the effort required to equalize is high. We have done well and we have done not so well under those conditions, but I would say that a slight edge would go to the 110. NIce to hear that you did so well in the Manitou passage. Would like to do something like that again. Most exciting. | ||
| Guhl/Williwaw/Peth Amboy, NJ Unregistered guest |
The 110 is a huge advantage in under 15 knots. I race my J105 PHRF only, and the big chute makes all the difference. Having said that, I agree with Bee that the smaller chutes, even the older 77SM are much faster on a reach, with some wind. I also just got a Code 1A light air reaching machine chute, and I can tell you that "it makes its own wind - and gets you going when no one else is moving!" I just finised the Around Long Island (NY) race and took a third. Had first or second sewn up all around until the last 18 miles to the finish (a 190 mile race - I also did the Mac race a few years ago, with a different boat - a great race, it is), and a hugh T-Storm blew us all off course, and we lost a bit. This boat is fantastic! I'm now contemplating doing next season PHRF racing under the one-design rating. In Long Island, the difference is a rating of 75 under PHRF config, versus 111 under OD config - HUGE! If there is any air over 8 knots, it would be a killer rating I think - does anyone want to comment? | ||
| Matt Berger Newbie Username: Rag_doll Post Number: 21 Registered: 07-2003 |
Dear Capt. Willawaw, Firstly, if you are going to race PHRF on LIS, your rating would be 105 providing your boat is in STRICT One Design configuration. That means also observing the crew weight of 1045lbs. The spinnaker of the class is 89sqm. and any deviations will have to be addressed on your application to the YRA of LIS. I was one of the handicappers that checked your application and I couldn't believe the configuration you chose to do the ALIR. With the winds that were expected for the event, with the rating of 105, you would have "Blown them away"to Montauk and almost all the way to the finish. I know that it got light at the finish (as per your comment) but, I think you had a great chance to save your time. Be that as it may, the 105 rating is an interesting rating in that if it's blowing, you win and if there's light air, you'll lose. All that aside, I believe that you are in the geographical area of Fleet 6 and we would love to have you join our fleet and race one design with us. You'll meet nice people and real good sailors...I promise!!! | ||
| Bee Bednar Newbie Username: Abejita Post Number: 12 Registered: 05-2006 |
WOW!!!. What a rating difference. I would race OD with class sails and 4 people for every race with that big of a difference. Here on good ole Galveston Bay, the difference between OD and PHRF is 9 measly seconds! OD is 87 and PHRF is 78. Hardly worth worrying about so if you run offshore here you definitely need to go PHRF. My only disagreement with Williwaw is that the difference I see starts below about 8. Then the 110 is worth it big time. This is basically my experience here. Also, based on my experience in OD vs PHRF I must also agree with Matt. Go OD every chance you get. Especially with that big of a rating difference. I have a very strange 110. Its not super fast downwind, but you can almost point with it. In 5 knots the boat will almost do wind speed. Very flat and cut almost like a genoa. We have gone up to about 55 degrees off the wind with it. Just to be sure we are on the same page our PHRF config is Max genoa of 155% 110 sq. mt. chute So how does one get that big of a difference. I would like to take it up with our PHRF boys. | ||
| Jon Weglarz Unregistered guest |
James: You should identify the boat in the Mac that you feel had a spinaker which you feel was not class legal. Ask them for the sail tag # corresponding with the spinaker up at that time. Then look up the sail tag list on the class website. If they didnt have a tag, they should acknowledge they did not follow the rules of the race. Jon Weglarz Caress 464 | ||
| Michael Morin, Skipper, Junto, Fleet 18, Detroit Unregistered guest |
Seems there has been some controversy regarding the spinnaker used by Junto in the Chicago to Mackinac Race in July. We campaign the boat with Class sails - either with two 89 Sq Meter spinnakers or as we did in this race, one 77 sm reacher and an 89 sm runner. The sail tags posted on this site for hull 384 show the inventory for the boat. The huge "whomper" is a new yellow 89 sm spinnaker built by Doyle that just might be pretty fast. Being yellow it looks big. While it probably seems unbelievable, we managed to close a 30-minute lead and pass the first place boat by sailing further downwind with speed in a good breeze (gusts around 18) and big waves (2'). However, it's important to know it took us about 7 hours! The other cool thing is the sail's ability to pass a boat to leeward. We were shocked as well, but the wind gods gave us a puff at just the right moment and the rest is history. Would like to talk to the skipper of Buzz. They obviously sailed an incredible race. There were boats that finished 12 hours behind us in this, "the world's longest distance freshwater race" - 333 miles. If he would email me at morinm@comcast.net we can trade phone numbers. Following is the sail tag information registered with the National Association. Our 77 sm pre-dates sail tag registration, so it's not listed. It was built in 2001 by UK. 384 Mike Morin 0605207D Doyle 2006-07-04 S89 384 Michael Morin 0407259K UK Halsey 2004-12-16 M 384 Michael Morin 0304327K UK Halsey 2003-12-10 J 384 Michael Morin 0112717K UK Halsey 2002-02-27 S89 | ||
| Mark Gurney/Buzz/Muskegon Unregistered guest |
Mike: Junto sailed a great race and deserved to win. There was never any question on our boat that you were not flying the class legal 89 sq meter spinnaker. There is a nice sequence of photos posted on Helipix.com (you can find the photos by entering the sail numbers) taken just after you passed us. Your tack line is more eased as is your sheet, but both chutes seem to have about the same rotation. We were faster with the wind forward and you blew by us when the wind went aft. Makes sense. I guess I will put an order in for a Doyle chute next year. We were flying a two year old North chute. Congratulations on your win. |
